Michael Shellenberger is the best-selling author of “Apocalypse Never” and “San Fransicko." He is a journalist and founder of Public, a Substack publication. Michael is a Time Magazine Hero of the Environment and Green Book Award winner. He is also founder and president of Environmental Progress, a research organization that incubates ideas, leaders, and movementsmichaelshellenberger.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices